I publish below the submission I made to the UK Justice Select Committee following their visit to Jersey back in July 2013.
As readers will recall the Chief Minister's department went to extraordinary lengths to try and ensure that those States Members who actually both knew what skulduggery was going on within our so-called 'justice'system; and crucially were also willing to stand up and tell the truth about it didn't get to spill the beans. All of course why the self-proclaimed 'Great and the Good' of the Establishment Party were enjoying a thousand-odd pound jollie at the Atlantic Hotel and all at taxpayers' expense.
Nevertheless, following what had been an attempt to later stage-manage a brief official meeting with the Committee - a meeting to which only 17 of your 51 representatives cared enough about justice to even turn up - having been pressured by Deputy Shona Pitman it was agreed by the Chairman that the deadline for anyone else wishing to make a submission to the Committee to tell things exactly how they are rather than the spin of the Atlantic Hotel shindig would be extended.
Any such submissions would then, we were assured, be posted on the Committee's government website. Indeed, we were told that individuals must NOT make their own submissions public until this simple process was complete.
Any such submissions would then, we were assured, be posted on the Committee's government website. Indeed, we were told that individuals must NOT make their own submissions public until this simple process was complete.
Like a number of other deeply concerned individuals I did just this.Yet what happened? Three months on not one of the submissions has ever appeared on the website as we were promised. Why I ask? Perhaps the true reasons why anyone who dares rock the Establishment boat in Jersey can never then hope to achieve justice suddenly becomes a whole lot clearer...
Submission from Deputy Trevor Mark Pitman
My name is Trevor Mark Pitman. I am Jessey born and a Deputy representing St Helier Districts No. 1 in the Jersey States Assembly, the Island’s Parliament. I was first elected to the States in 2008 and re-elected in 2011. All mandates are for a three year term of office; though this set to rise to four years.
Directly prior to entering politics I was a professional youth worker within the Jersey Youth Service (this being a part of the Island’s Education, Sport & Culture department); my university qualification in this regard being in Informal Education/Youth & Community Development.
At the time of my initial election to the States I was the Chairman of the Island’s first officially registered political party (now defunct) the Jersey Democratic Alliance (JDA). A movement founded on the principles of social democracy; this had been set up to try and bring some degree of transparency and policy accountability to the local political scene.
As is the case with a number of my colleagues the purpose of my submission is to draw to the Committee’s attention my serious concerns about various aspects of the governance of Jersey and in particular what can only be described as abuses (both corruption and lack of the necessary diligence) within the Criminal Justice and Legal Systems; the lack of appropriate separation of powers between the Legislature, Judiciary and Executive; and the recent Referendum on the Structure of Government.
The reality is that, as has already been highlighted by one of my colleagues, Deputy Mike Higgins 3,000 words is wholly inadequate to fully elaborate on the above matters to the degree needed. I would thus simply echo Deputy Higgins’ request that at a later date the Committee consider accepting highly detailed, evidence-based written submissions into these areas. As such I briefly detail below a number of these personal concerns arising from both my own experience as both a politician and a member of the public; similarly others arising from evidence given to me by numerous members of the Jersey public.
Indeed, though a highly stressful and hugely expensive experience it has been the first-hand experience of my wife Shona (also an elected Deputy) and I in being foolish enough to trust to the workings of the Island’s justice system that has enabled me to see clearly a number of the most staggering and disturbing abuses/failings still currently being allowed to ‘run unchecked’ as a consequence of the UK government not intervening to ensure ‘good governance’.
The reality underlying this experience being that, though thoroughly evidenced as failures in both adhering to rules on conflict of interest and in monitoring of the local Jurat (lay judge) system was, with the UK government’s failure to intervene we were left being passed back from the UK Justice Minister to appeal to the very offices whose lack of professionalism had let us down. As we were subsequently to learn – we are very much not alone in being subjected to such abuses of justice.
Perhaps most disturbing of all, however, is the reality that most of these abuses/failings appear to have gone on for many, many decades. Again, I make no apology for reiterating the view that these abuses and deeply entrenched institutional failings have been allowed to come about because of a failure by Westminster to adequately monitor what has been happening within one of its own Crown Dependencies.
Correcting this ‘blind eye’/non-interventionist approach is, an ever-increasing number of islanders believe, the only way these abuses and failings will be halted and true justice and good governance restored. I thus list below just some of the incidents/issues causing me grave concern as a Member of the island’s parliament.
1. The loss of evidence from police custody relating to child abuse (Haut de la Garenne) and which is also highly relevant to the States Compensation Scheme for the victims of abuse;
2. Failure to prosecute highly wealthy ‘Establishment’ figures in the Royal Court despite clear and solid evidence of child abuse;
3. The collusion of civil servants and politicians to remove a Minister, former Senator Stuart Syvret, from Office during the ‘Historic’ Child abuse investigation revolving around Haut de la Garenne; this being revealed by a former Chief of Police, Graham Power QPM;
4. The consequent rapid, and in the view of many of us, illegal removal of the very same former Chief of Police soon afterward; this being followed by an orchestrated and falsified ‘trashing’ of both the individual, his recently retired Deputy and the investigation;
5. An in my view illegal police raid on the home of the same former Senator highlighted above and his then partner;
5. The failure of the UK to intervene to dismiss a former Attorney General – subsequently Bailiff and now a Senator for allowing a convicted paedophile, Roger Holland, to be sworn into the Honorary Police – this leading to the paedophile abusing more young girls;
6. Failure on the part of two successive Bailiffs to appropriately scrutinise and remove – over a period of 14 years – an individual sitting as a Jurat – John Le Breton, who is highlighted (within the government suppressed 1999 Stephen Sharp Report) to have refused to look at/consider evidence against a paedophile colleague, Andrew Jervis-Dykes. Yet then written in support of him; stating amongst other comments that the paedophile ‘had served the College in an outstandingly competent and conscientious way’; and that there ‘may be no case to answer’.
7. Failure by the Bailiff’s Office to ensure the same Jurat recused himself, as required, from sitting and judging on evidence/fact in a defamation case where the Jurat has a long-standing and evidenced relationship - both personal and working - with a director of one of the defendant companies;
8. The failure to ensure that all trials are compliant with Article 6 of the European Court of Human Rights
9. The failure of the States of Jersey Police to properly investigate allegations of perjury by Civil Servants in a Court of Law, especially when it has been alleged that some of their former colleagues were involved;
10. The failure of the States of Jersey Police to properly investigate or even refuse to accept complaints of perversion of the course of justice and other unlawful activities: both by serving officers and individuals within the legal profession;
11. The working of the Island’s legal aid system which means that ordinary citizens lacking the necessary ‘deep pockets’ have almost no chance of getting any justice in the legal system; regardless of the strength of their case;
12. Abuse of the Data Protection Law to implement what I can only describe as politically motivated ‘secret court’ proceedings;
13. Shocking and inexplicable inconsistency within sentencing for child abuse offences;
14. The failure of the Crown Dependencies ‘Team’ to appropriately consider and act upon complaints of criminal acts/abuses of the Jersey justice system; instead referring them back mass produced ‘template’ letter to be dealt with/appealed via the same individuals/institutions that have allowed the problems to occur
15. The lack of an individual’s right in Jersey to take out a private criminal prosecution;
16. Allegations of tampering with trial recordings within the Magistrates’ Court prior to said recording being sent for transcription;
17. The refusal of the UK to intervene to put an end to the ‘Dual Role’ of the Bailiff which allows one individual to preside as both Head of the Judiciary and Legislature; a system far worse in ECHRs failings than the system now being addressed in Sark;
18. A wholly unwarranted and divisive monopoly to practise allowed to exist for ‘Jersey lawyers’; this being the key factor in the extortionate rates such lawyers are allowed to charge – thus limiting justice to the wealthy and excluding most who may be termed ‘middle earners’;
19. The refusal of Jersey courts to ensure litigants in person are provided with copies of the law (relevant to their case) in language that they can understand;
20. The failure of the Data Protection Commissioner’s Office to properly assist members of the public who file subject access complaints to the States of Jersey Police in order to pursue cases against the Police - when they are being actively obstructed by the police;
In concluding this brief submission I repeat that I sincerely hope the Committee will be willing to accept further, detailed written submissions at a later date; and similarly will be willing to hear oral evidence from those with the concerns – regardless of some us being tagged ‘anti-Establishment’ figures - rather than the usual Executive members and Civil Servants the UK authorities normally hear from and have contact with.
I fully concur with my colleague, Deputy Mike Higgins, is stating that like others I am turning to the Justice Select Committee for assistance because it is proving impossible to successfully address many of these issues in Jersey and firm external intervention is needed to end the abuses that are occurring in this Island. None of this may be new – but it is high time the UK played its part in putting an end to such failings and abuses.
Deputy Trevor Mark Pitman
Keep the Faith. No-one in the UK government may be listening yet - but come Hell or high water; in office or forced out - the time is coming when we will MAKE those who should finally HEAR and bring the corrupt and the complacent to book.
Keep the Faith. No-one in the UK government may be listening yet - but come Hell or high water; in office or forced out - the time is coming when we will MAKE those who should finally HEAR and bring the corrupt and the complacent to book.
I just can't think for the life of me why the UK and our big wigs over here would not want this brilliant warts and all submission to be stuck on a website for all the world to see. Not! I can almost hear the refrain: "you are shafting us internationally!"
ReplyDeleteYou really do have to ask why none of the submissions were ever put up as was promised? You equally have to ask was there any interference from the Jersey Feudal Lords?
ReplyDeleteI applaud you and I applaud Shona for such brave speeches. Jersey has been blessed with 2 leaders, you two! At last someone is bringing up William and Philip Bailhache, their huge conflict of interest. The Michel Case.... the list is endless.... keep up the work. It is appreciated. So many times these two Brothers have controlled the Law, the Jurats, the Constables.... Mr McColl, you need to answer Trevor's question, where do you go when you have been given a miscarriage of Justice, it is not good enough to say the Privy Council, European Human Rights, this takes years and years to fight! and lots of money, why? it must be dealt with in Jersey. William and Philip Bailhache must be brought to account. My fear is Mr McColl will also follow them under the pressure as Birt already has! keep up the good work, you are both true leaders x
ReplyDeletePerhaps one simple but hugely telling example of how we need wider intervention to overhaul our 'justice' system is this.
DeleteWithin our application to appeal in November we will be having to ask individuals (and I point this out with all due respect) to dare hold to account for allowing John Le Breton to sit as a Jurat - regardless of his proven willingness to disregard evidence if it suits his purpose - the very man, ie the Bailiff, who asked the Crown to appoint them to their Jersey roles. Just how can this be ECHR compliant in any shape or form? It can't.
I can think of one person - who prefers private meetings to clear up any misunderstandings, although I do wonder whether within any such meetings a big brown envelope is involved!
ReplyDeleteThat someone in high authority does not step in to sort out this septic isle when you read such compelling stuff as this gives the answer to your question loud and clear. The UK either does not give a damn what is done to our people or else someone powerful is wholly complicit in all of it. Makes you want to scream or at the very least cry. But you are right we must win justice in the end no matter how long it takes. I hope these scumbags understand how determined some of us are.
ReplyDeleteIt's too bad there isn't a way to sue to compel the outside authorities to issue instructions or directions on how a Jersey citizen can seek remedy and redress without encountering conflict of interest. It would be helpful if the Crown could also be made to issue clear guidelines on which human rights violations it permits for Jersey to incorporate into judicial practice, as part of the special Crown Protectorate Status. Then you'd have an admission, at least. A clear admission that Jersey enshrines human rights violations and non-common law compliance in regular practice, could then be taken to Strasbourg as a single issue, perhaps?
ReplyDeleteElle
I think trust is the key issue here Trevor, after they have broken our trust in them, we must strive to maintain the trust in ourselves, the trust to do what is right, and see it through to the end, no matter what!
ReplyDeleteHERE is my humble effort :)
What I can not understand is why Trevor ,Tadier Higgins et al do not hold a press conference with the major National papers and blow the whistle big time...once it hits the major headlines the U.K. Govt. would have to investigate...or am I being simplistic...?
ReplyDeleteWhen Jurats get elected what checks are done on them? is there a gap here to also look at, we only have to see that some of these Jurat's track record to know that proper checks were not done on them.
ReplyDeleteLets do a check on the type of people that become Jurat's. Are they from all areas of society? if not why not? this also proves that the system does not work. They are not representative of The Island as a whole! Keep up the good work Trevor and Shona too.
ReplyDeleteTrevor
ReplyDeleteWhy is it so that the UK Government won't intervene where clearly we have a fundamental breakdown in the rule of Law, endemic corruption within the Establishment and endemic corruption within the Judiciary in Jersey.
Is it a case of protectionism ??.
I also wonder how many UK Privy Council and Ministry of Justice officials have investments or bank accounts in Jersey, is there any way of checking.
There has to be a very good reason why the UK Government does not want to intervene and upset the apple cart considering it is the Secretary of State for Justice that has overall responsibility for Good Governance in Jersey
I think a bit of investigation is required of our own !!
I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
It would be great to hear from anybody that used to work in the Finance industry to assist
Magnificent farce in the States today in response to your oral question:
ReplyDeleteDeputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier will ask the following question of the Chairman of Privileges and Procedures Committee – “Would the Committee agree to review the current operation of Standing Order 109(7), which relates to the removal of the names of individuals named within the course of States questions or debates, to ensure it is operating adequately?”
You pointed out that Ian Le Marquand had got away with calling Lenny Harper an "incompetent maverick" in the States, whereas others get their name scrubbed from the Hansard record. At this point, things got VERY weird. Philip Bailhache attempted to raise a point of order, criticising YOU for referring to a person by name (Lenny Harper) when making your point.
Things then got MUCH weirder. The Bailiff, Michael Birt, firmly countered Philip Bailhache, asserting that you, Trev, had every right to use Mr Harper's name; it was unavoidable in order to make your point and was therefore totally in order. I never thought I would see it. Birt disagreeing with Bailhache in the assembly. Pitman 1, Bailhache 0
What I'm waiting for now is two things. One, hopefully the recording of the exchange on The Jersey Way blog site later. Secondly, I'm waiting for Philip Bailhache to show some consistency. He decried you for using Lenny Harper's name in the States today. Therefore logic dictates that he should be leading the charge to have Lenny Harper's name removed from Hansard, from the time of the unfortunate and damaging "incompetent maverick" slur by Ian Le Marquand. I shan't hold my breath.
Stuart Syvret often talks of the chatter in Jersey conservative circles, about certain people excessively overreaching themselves, never knowing when to stop. Today was yet another example.
Now online. Question 8 at http://thejerseyway.blogspot.com/2013/10/questions-without-answers-081013.html
DeleteThanks to TJW
An issue that really does need addressing is the regular inconsistency - some would say abuse - within the Bailiff's and Deputy Bailiff's enforcement of Standing Orders which sees, for example, the unwarranted insult to Lenny harper from the Home Affairs Minister allowed to stay on Hansard.
DeleteWhilst, for example again, the name of a convicted petty criminal such as Jon Haworth of death threat phone call infamy gets removed.
This isboth not in line with Standing Orders and is quite cleary wholly wrong.
Bizarre it was to be sure. I think the Senator's real problem is he just does not realise how challenged he is in the old grey matter department.
ReplyDeletePerhaps years of people saying 'Yes, sir, right away Sir, You are quite right of course, Sir' makes such problems even worse. Sad really.
That could be the only explanation.
DeleteCall me a sceptic based on the comment 18:08.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion Bailhache and Birt are playing to comments made on the forums.
If that little scenario proves anything, it proves fear in TPTB
Trevor can you ask this question in the states? From a member of the public. 'As a member of the public, why is it we do not feel we have any 'real' support from the UK in relation to issue of Justice in Jersey? we are sent from pillar to post, if we are not happy with a Justice issue in Jersey. We write to the Justice Dept in the UK and are always told, ' it is not our problem' go back to Jersey. Please advise, this really does need correct clarity, it leaves people in Jersey completely helpless! and I am afraid for too long we have 'shut up and accepted' this response from the UK. Enough is now enough! it's time for the UK to make up it's mind, is it there to help us or is it not. Please Trevor, ask this question. x
ReplyDeleteIn addition when will the Jersey Law books be completely in English? it is high time this was also sorted out.
ReplyDeleteOh and another question, can we please go over how the Jurat system actually works, in plain English so the Public understand how these people are elected in such a high position? sorry Trevor, but this also needs to be clarified in simple English please.
ReplyDeleteGreat speech in the states this afternoon Trev and no surprise Phil Rondel couldn't stick around to hear you explain how the government has been covering up for child abuse all these years. Constable Rondel wrote a character reference for a convicted pedophile friend of his. Truth hurt Phil?
ReplyDeleteWhat was up with Phil Rondel today?
ReplyDeleteIt was good to hear Senator Len Norman chairing today's "in committee" debate, proving in a couple of hours that the Carswell recommendations could be implemented in the bat of an eyelid. End the dual role of the Bailiff. An unelected judge has no place in our legislature.
ReplyDeleteLen Norman did a good job and indeed showed just how we do not need an unelected judge in a silly red cloak presiding over - and regularly abusing the Speaker's power as President.
Delete"What was up with Phil Rondel today?"
ReplyDeleteProbably THIS
Good speech again today our Trev, but on the subject of the budget, yesterday at 12.15 mid day my neighbour received her Daily Liar,or rag as others know it, she opened it up and all the details of the budget were written inside, but I listened to Ozouf informing the States on the budget at about 11.30am, does this mean that the rag were privy to the budget information before States members, otherwise how could they have had time to write and print it all in such a short time??
ReplyDeleteTevor.
ReplyDeleteAn alarming update on the school SHOOTING
Justice Select Committee, my evidence finally GETS PUBLISHED. Yours didn't though?
ReplyDeleteMy Justice Select Committee evidence is refused as it was to personal or as I beleive, hit the nail on the head, 'I told the truth', how foolish of me.
ReplyDeleteBut I am assured by the 2nd Clerk at the Select Committee office that my evidence will be sent to all of the Justice Select Committee members as "circulated, as correspondence, to Members".
One can only hope !!
Trevor.
ReplyDeleteWho is supporting deported ABUSE VICTIM?
"Deputy Trevor Pitman @BaldTruthJersey 5h
ReplyDeleteThe Mail BBC Jersey story sick. Puts Gripton's re-tweeting of hate against Shona run by troll whose comments they use in even darker light!"
Where is this can you do a link?
Dear Jon.
ReplyDeleteJust to set your mind at rest the police have a full print out of all the Twitter hate site you invened to pursue your hobby of attempting to bully women.
What was that thing that some idiot said in a drunken death threat phone call? 'Your time will come!'
How apt.
Jon.
DeleteWhat has happened? have the other respectable citizens media sites adopted my policy of (until today) just ignoring you? Still, thank you very much for the latest libel. You are indeed doing a great job in ensuring you eventually go down where even a hand out of taxpayer's money can't save you. Keep that evidence coming. Thanks.
The troll should take a good look around on Wednesday. He will soon be very familiar with some new surroundings me thinks.
DeleteJersey Police & Jersey Police Complaints Authority now covering up complaints that were NEVER EVEN MADE
ReplyDelete(In response to Mr Rondels statement in JEP will they print we will see)
ReplyDeleteWhen your rich you can afford to sit in the states for nothing, Simply a way of keeping the working class out of government and allow those with money to dominate hence the major problem in Jersey, of cover ups and no accountability. If your one of the boys or girls in the in crowd freedom to treat the law with contempt with no chance of ever being held to account as long as you vote as directed.
Government of the majority by the minority has never worked look in your history books even to day wars are being fought to end it. Do we in Jersey also have to take to the Streets to claim the government that the Crown is supposed to guaranty but is totally lacking.
Get rid of the Governor and His entourage and we could fund a dozen Nurses as he is of no use in defending the rights of the working class in this God forsaken and immoral Island.
JEP
Hope you have the back bone to allow this comment but some how I doubt it,
Trevor.
ReplyDeleteFormer Health Minister Stuart Syvret demands "LAWFUL COURT"
Syvret, Kangaroo Courts, Data Protection, Jersey Corruption, and the FILTHY FOUR
ReplyDeleteCan't find working link to your new blog posting from a few hours ago.
ReplyDeleteNo you wouldn't. I had to postpone it due to a flurry of constutuent cases which all came with a ten minute spell. I shouldn't have been doing a 'teaser' but - hey - when you are having a couple of idiots try to bully and intimidate you it was somewhat amusing. Unfortunately, with mum's condition on top will have it up at beginning of the week. maybe eben a completely different blog all together?
DeleteI am glad you mentioned the disgraceful persecution of Stuart Syvret.
ReplyDeleteI would like to highlight the new wholly States-owned company Andium who say their rental policy will see all new tenancies being charged at 90% of the Market Rent Level. "This will enable us to keep investing in our existing homes, and to build new properties to meet the growing demand." "If you are already one of our clients you will not be affected by the 90% Market Rent Level unless or until you move to alternative accommodation. As now, all rents will be subject to an annual inflation based increase."
"It is also worth noting that if you are in receipt of the housing element of income support, you will be fully protected against these rental increases."
Now I have spoken to an existing tenant today that has received a letter saying their rent will be increased by 16.66 %, this increase is not viable for this person and has forced them to look at cheaper accommodation in the private sector.
Point one here is a lot of people living in States property are middle to low income earners who receive income support, rising States rents will only put more pressure on the benefits system and give private sector landlords an excuse to raise their rents in a no rent control system.
The no rent control/income support system is not only an utterly corrupt system enabling greedy landlords to bleed the States coffers dry of tax payers money, there should be an investigation as to why its being allowed.
I am sure this is something else you can add to your list of the many corrupt activities of our local mafia.
I have brought up this income support/no rental control situation in my previous post because rents are now the number one issue of why People are finding it so hard to survive, there are a number of people with property portfolios holding tenants to ransom knowing they can charge virtually what they want and get it because a number of those tenants will get be bailed out by income support, a system designed to look like its helping low earners in particular but is in fact a system helping unscrupulous landlords to steal money off the tax payer, its an absolute disgrace yet the Jersey government allows it to continue.
ReplyDeleteI think we first need an immediate transparent investigation into the financial dealings of every politician in the States and we can include Frank Walker who is now involved with Andium so the public can see want interests if any our glorious electorate have in the property market and if any are benefiting from this income support system.
We should not have a situation where people are in positions of trust and people who are already well off being told "look there's a huge pot of taxpayers money here just help yourself !" its almost unfathomable what is going on here and the implications this situation has as the main factor of the high cost of living in Jersey.
If they are outside sources with property portfolios those portfolios should be compulsory bought by the states for less than market value and those persons or companies banned from any financial activity in the Island, its going on we don't need it and it should be stopped immediately.
Its incomprehensible exactly how many corrupt activities and dealings our government are involved in, we have all had years of spin and cover ups from these mobsters and it well overdue someone ended it.
Jersey's housing minister says he has deep reservations over calls for rent controls.
ReplyDeleteDeputy Andrew Green was speaking during a housing debate on BBC Radio Jersey's Politics Hour on Sunday.
Rent controls form part of wide-ranging rented housing reform proposal passed by the States in May.
The proposition, lodged by Deputy Montfort Tadier, calls for minimum housing standards and a landlord registry.
Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote
The best thing we can do in Jersey to influence the price of purchase and rental is to increase supply”
End Quote
Deputy Andrew Green
Housing Minister
Deputy Green said he had no problem with introducing housing standards but believes rent controls lead to higher prices.
"I've agreed to investigate it with an open mind and that's what I'm going to do," said Deputy Green.
"All of the evidence I've reviewed, and I've agreed to look at evidence from other countries, all the evidence I've reviewed is that rent control doesn't work and can drive prices up because it reduces supply.
"The best thing we can do in Jersey to influence the price of purchase and rental is to increase supply."
'Absolute disaster'
Deputy Tadier said rent controls were common in Germany.
"It may prove not viable but it may be that we can look at places like Germany which does have tight rental controls but a high level of private sector rental and it seems to work."
Robert Weston, president of the Lodging House Association, said rent controls would be "an absolute disaster".
"In the UK landlords provided 90% of housing long before there was social public housing.
"When rent controls came in that dropped down to barely 2% of accommodation being provided by private landlords.
"Rent controls will never work."
My reply to that is if rent controls are applied and landlords who previously had property for rent come out of the market than the government must apply new laws so they cannot hold the market to ransom.
Any property owners that have been involved in the rental market and withdraw after rent controls are applied must be forced to rent their properties under new legislation or lose their properties to compulsory purchase.
We cannot and must not allow these greedy people to dictate to the government and people of Jersey in a market which has such serious implications on the quality of life for many people.
Back to my previous posts ! EVERY government minister must be vigorously checked as regards property interests in Jersey and Green can be first on the list because his arguments have no basis when the government can easily apply new laws on landlords as mentioned earlier.